I have really thought about it, and I have come to the conclusion that it does not exist.

What is Justice?

But a stupid ideological thought that someone can correct a wrong doing.

Justice is merely Revenge for the so called "Good Guys"

FINALLY WE AGREE ON SOMETHING!

Revenge is justice.


When someone does a wrong against society, they are brought to justice.

But justice is an arbitrary concept. Its meaning changes with the individual.

It's a personal concept, but it's not arbitrary. It means retribution to everyone.

It does differ in that men who have committed different wrongs, such as a burglar or a dictator conducting genocide, may recieve quite differing punishments (jail time vs public execution).

But my sense of justice is you wrong me i kill you.
That is justice.

Right, that's because you're crazy.

But in society that is not viewed as justice. Also justice is biased

Do tell.

Well lets look at the current justice system in America. We are punished based on a jury of our peers. Dont even try to tell me that they are not biased.

It's impossible for justice not to be biased, but it's not a bad thing.

OBJECTION!

Justice exists but it is personal and subjective. It's revenge to the extent that it equalizes the original wrong comitted

So then there shouldnt be a judicial system

Justice is an opinion, overall. Once someone feels that another person has paid for their wrongdoings, then it is justice.

The justice system has a completely different definition or justice. Justice in that instance is the law being able to punish someone for their wrongdoings.

But whos to say what the standard of justice is for a society?

The Goverment, duh

I never said I don't believe in justice I just said I dislike how people use the term.
Justice does exist, it's just revenge.

But why should the government be able to decide that? Some people in government think that Hitler was justified in the Holocaust.

Because the idea was that in America the people should choose the ones who represent us.

But can you call it a just society?

Can you call it an unjust society?

Yes I can.

All opinions, pl0x.

Government bases laws on popular culture. Here, the majority of people are, like, "omg, killing is bad," so therefore killing is against the law. But the majority of people are also, like, "omg I love taco shells," so therefore taco shells are not illegal to eat.

I'm not saying that's the best way to go, though, since cultures vary, especially here in America. Here, about half the people are like "omg no gay marriage" or "omg no abortions" and the other half is like "omg gay marriage pl0x" or "omg abortions pl0x", so knowing the "just" thing isn't always possible.

Also, some laws are for our safety whether we like them or not, such as no driving under the influence, no snorting methamphetamine, and the "killing is bad" thing would fall under here, too.

But on those laws, the why is marijuana illegal and tobacco legal? Tobacco is worse.

I can't answer that question too well. I remember my social studies teacher once mentioning something about tobacco being one of the state's main industries since the beginning of the country, and that played a role in it. Or something.

Right. So the just thing to do would be to legalize pot.

With the logic presented, yes.

But its illegal and so its not a just society

Again, "just" is an opinion word. Some people are appeased with the marijuana law, and some with the smoking law.

I think that justice does exist, but it's difficult to find in the world. Justice applies to more than just punishment for wrongdoings, although that's part of it. It also means making sure that the innocent are protected. Like in court, justice at it's most basic is when the guilty are punished in accordance with their crime and the innocent are released.

Now, I know that that doesn't happen often enough here, but that's my example. I know there are some laws here and elsewhere (like the weed laws when alcohol and nicotine do much worse, or a guy in the middle east being executed for converting to Christianity) that are unjust and unfair, but that is due to outside influences corrupting the governmental process. Whether that be religion, lobbyists, an angry mob, it's still influencing the process.

I don't know where justice can be found in this world (except for Europe or Canada, maybe) but I do know that in the States it is found in precious little amounts, like an endangered species. I think that has to do with the rampant profiteering here, but that's another topic.

Justice's definition is rather arbitrary depending on who you talk to, but it does still exist.

Justice is something that if you want it... you have to get it yourself... becuase no one in any countries "judicial" system is going to get it for you.

I'm bumping this because dammit, I want to reply to it.

So here's my opinion.

Justice is a very man-made thing. Much like "good" and "bad" or cars and planes - it's something that has been fabricated by the human mind. This is why we can perceive nature as being very cruel or unjust - because in the wild justice does not exist and will not exist.

Having a higher mental ability than other creatures and the ability to actually "believe" in something that we have no real proof exists, we fabricate all these little emotions and ideas into our world to make our world more ideal in the first place. After all, we look at nature and we think it cruel. Thus, we insert justice into our own reality to make it more bearable and less cruel than the big wide world.

And we believe so much in these things, that when we feel we don't get this "justice" we ourselves made, we cry out in outrage about mistreatment and injustice.

Personally, I do believe justice exists. You can get justice. But justice is also a nice way of saying revenge. People die all over the world in fights or arguments or things that people then say "Well I was justified to do this"

Murderers think they can justify why they kill somebody. Just like we can justify why murder is a wrong a murderer in his mind can feel like he can justify why it was right.

Because it is a fabricated thing, as it were, we can manipulate justice and the ability to justify things to our own wants and our own need. Justice is much like beauty and lies in the eye of the beholder. What one person can think is justice another will disagree.

Therefore, justice does most definitely exist, however, it is so easily swayed by opinion, experience and the majority against the minority, it's really little more than something terribly fickle that can cause a lot of conflicts.

wow... that was pretty amazing ozone

*bows* It would seem I have been bested.

bump :up:

Well...this is a funny little topic lol. I must say i commend all of you taking part in this topic. Even hoping to lay out specifically what an abstract, theoretical idea is a feat in its own. Something not many of us can do. Something even Socrates himself knew he could not. Instead, he chose to make people think. For example, What is love? Beautifully argued in Plato's Symposium. So for this I believe i'll take the route Socrates would have taken, an go with that I know not what justice is. Do you?


Ozone, you say that justice is man made and with that, i can only agree with you. very well said, for morals themselves are a creation of man as well. Why is murder bad? Because we chose for it to be. Why is theft wrong? Because we feel it should be. Why is lying bad? Because it makes it hard to know whats going on lol. good good. But theres something i dont think is quite right. You said that justice is in the eye of the beholder. However, like you said, something suffering from insanity may feel murdering is just. Only problem is we all know its not. Why? Because it is? Why isn't thievery just? And why is robbin hood just? It all surprisingly enough goes back to our morals. However, many of us loose sight of their true purpose, and thereby become blinded.

So, why is murder wrong? Because it hurts society. Why is theft wrong? Because it also hurts society economically. But why was robbin hood just? Because it helped society by giving those in need, what they needed...which is usually the oppressed majority.

Do you feel that justice could possibly be described as an egalitarian, equivalent exchange system on a moral basis? an eye for an eye if you will? Well the only problem is this works up to a point. If I build a house which collapses, killing the son of the man i sold it to, does my son die (Hammurabi's Code of Laws). No. Why should your life be ended due to your father?

I feel that justice does indeed exist. However, I must profess that I do not believe that a PERFECT justice exists. Much like love, our government, or even life itself...there may never be a perfect thing/system/person/whatever you will. The question of what is justice is much like the question what is beauty. However, I believe that justice, as I said, should be laid as an equivalent exchange. Morals were derived from the success of a society. and I personally believe that justice should follow in suite.

I could go farther such as extending into the argument over which morals are fundamentally sound or not? Such as going against gay marriage due to the lack of procreation. However in todays world, the need for procreation is much more of a luxury than necessity. Duh...>.> I mean..there are orphans that need help people? Which leads to the idea of socialism...helping society as a whole. however i digress. for another time :P

please dont let this topic die :( i love arguments on abstract, aesthetic ideas :DD

You know...I was thinking about this a little more and I've realized at least one mistake in my post. Justice cannot conceivably be defined in such narrow minded constructs as equivalent exchange.

my one example to express that would be the intent behind any situation requiring some sort of retribution. by this i mean, should a group of people unknowingly fund a product, or participate in a system where people may die as a direct outcome of their involvement, should they be then put to death?? an obvious answer would be no because it was an "unforeseen grievance"

so its obvious that justice is even that much harder to accurately define and once again, i can only claim that i do know what true justice is

Well first of all, there are always people out there who say "there is no justice" and the human race is bad, yada, yada, just for the hell of doing so.

Anyways, from this point on, when I refer to justice, I am referring to a fair trial after having been convicted of a crime. To me, that's what justice is. Forcing others to take accountability for their actions against common law and/or society. (No murder, etc.)

But I believe that government is a means by which a society can achieve the highest level of justice. It is important to remove the human factor in the administration of justice as much as possible. What I mean by that is the elimination of emotions, feelings, and other things that would disrupt rational thought and therefore a fair trial. Written laws and codes and such (ex. The US Constitution). These things are devised by people, but I believe it removes the human factor to an acceptable level in which to achieve truer justice. (Notice I did not say true, but truer.)

Now, I do not believe emotions and etc. are bad things. Not in the slightest. But they can disrupt the process of justice significantly. I feel like I am human bashing when I say "remove the the human factor", but hopefully I have clarified my meaning if by chance I used the wrong word.